RE: Citroen C2 V12 | The Brave Pill

RE: Citroen C2 V12 | The Brave Pill

Saturday 11th December 2021

Citroen C2 V12 | The Brave Pill

Double the pleasure or double the pain?



Brave Pill tries not to be too obvious, at least not too often. True, a majority of the cars that feature here have big engines up front and send their drive to the opposite, interesting end. But a significant minority break the rule, with none smashing it further than this week's offering. Meet a twin-engined Citroen C2 which offers the combined total of 388hp and delivers that traction through all four wheels. Is anyone going to stand up and claim this isn't courageous enough?

Readers with longer memories, or taking inadequate doses of psychotropic drugs, may well be getting a touch of déjà vu about now. While this is the first Citroen C2 to be pill'd, and only the second French car, we have previously travelled to a similar place with the twin-engined Z Cars Mini that rounded off last year. The Twini used a brace of four-cylinder Yamaha R1 motorbike engines, but the Citroen has been given a meatier upgrade in the form of a pair of PSA's 2.9-litre V6es, both apparently donated from Peugeot 406 Coupes. Meaning that, with the combination of 12 cylinders and nearly six litres of displacement this supermini has getting on for a Lamborghini Murcielago's worth of engine distributed between both ends.

If your first question is "why?" the answer is definitely "because". The Franken-Citroen is the sort of fearless automotive mash-up that Britain does better than anywhere else, proof of the make it work spirit that led the Garagista revolution that turned the UK into the global centre of motorsport. Plus, it must be admitted, it also has a fair amount of the sort of cosmetic tweakery that used to be shown on the cars that featured in Max Power's Cruise Patrol.


The basic idea of doubling the fun by doubling the engines dates from far before this conversion. For those with sufficient fabrication (or high-end bodging) skills, adding a second motor is a relatively low cost way to increase performance and traction, thanks to the ability to send power to all four corners. Fittingly given our Pill's Citroen badge, the 2CV Sahara seems to have been the first of these to enjoy even modest commercial success - four-wheel drive enabling it to reach the dusty, slippery places the regular front-driven version couldn't.

Our Pill takes a different approach, with excitement and tyre smoke clearly at the top of the list of priorities that led to its creation. According to this PH build thread from 2011 work on it began when creator Gary Stone's previous single V6 C2 was destroyed in a garage fire. The V12's front engine is located by custom mounts and some fairly radical surgery has been required to squeeze it into the space formally occupied by the Cit's dinky four-pot. But the job of putting the second V6 into the back looks to have been an altogether higher level of hard, with the rear motor sitting in a reversed subframe and held in place by a tubular structure that brings the Forth Bridge to mind.

Cooling requirements have brought side-by-side radiators up front, and presumably some new plumbing under the car. Thermal issues are also likely the reason for the impressive quantity of holes that have been added to both ends, the bumpers seemingly having more space than substance. The engines reportedly keep their original five-speed manual transmissions, resulting in some creative engineering for the doubled-up gear selector and clutch mechanisms.


The advert text is keener to boast of the C2's unarguable awesomeness than to deliver much in the way of forensic detail. But, presuming nothing has changed since the car was built, it uses a custom ECU to allow the engines to operate at speeds up to 500rpm apart, presumably to give a rearward bias to the power delivery. The back gearbox was also given a welded differential when the car was built - great for drifting, but something that would make regular road use problematic. Replacing it with a conventional open diff wouldn't be that hard.

Against expectations, the car is road legal and even boasts an impressive quantity of MOT history for something so mad. Although, like the bodywork, this features lots of gaps. The test in 2011 seems to have been the first after the conversion was carried out, where a laid-back tester found nothing of note beyond a small windscreen ding and a cracked driver's mirror. That changed the following year with the official record including the dry note "at time of MOT vehicle is fitted with 2 engines." Indeed.

The 2012 test recorded 76,191 miles, the exact same figure also marked on the two subsequent clean passes in 2017 and 2020. That suggests either the odometer is broken, or the car is used very little. The last MOT also expired in May this year, although the selling dealer would likely slap on another one if anybody shows sufficient interest.


The £21,950 asking price is where things get more serious. That's only £400 more than the twin-engined Mini was being offered for last year, but any car this extreme is going to have its appeal limited to the most daring - the sort of automotive adventurers who cast their own pistons and weld in their sleep. Whether anybody who meets that narrow criteria is going to be prepared to get close to the valuation is another question, despite the huge amount of work that has obviously gone into building the car.

But let's not get all boring and sensible here - it's nearly Christmas, a great time for ridiculous excess and even seeing double, both qualities this Citroen offers in abundance. Leaving only the question of how on earth to track down an even more extreme Pill for the traditional end of term special next week.


See the original advert



Author
Discussion

MyV10BarksAndBites

Original Poster:

944 posts

50 months

Saturday 11th December 2021
quotequote all
Love it.... Just so mad... would love to get as much standard trim as I could back in... But love it either way... Would fit a conventional Lsd back in tho...

Edited by MyV10BarksAndBites on Saturday 11th December 16:25

mike74

3,687 posts

133 months

Saturday 11th December 2021
quotequote all
Dealer has had this for sale for yeeeeeears now.
.
I can't remember what it was on for when I first spotted it but I suspect it was lower than the current asking price.

Turini

421 posts

167 months

Saturday 11th December 2021
quotequote all
Not silly money for something, can’t imagine what it would be like drive

williskwl

258 posts

178 months

Saturday 11th December 2021
quotequote all
Looks mad and fun.

Dealer has a very mixed selection of stock!!

sato

582 posts

212 months

Saturday 11th December 2021
quotequote all
MyV10BarksAndBites said:
Lobe it....
Loeb it, you mean....!


impractical_classic

2 posts

108 months

Saturday 11th December 2021
quotequote all
Brilliant car, but like lots of similar conversions doesn't appear to have been IVA'd so the statement that it is "road legal" is dubious at best. As long as a buyer is happy to take the risk that they might get stuck with a track only car, then it's fine, but I do think Pistonheads should be more careful when writing about cars like this - not everyone understands the rules.

TUS373

4,528 posts

282 months

Saturday 11th December 2021
quotequote all
Can someone please explain how a twin engined car synchronises power from each end? My immediate thought is that the car will be either compressing or stretching itself. That is an obvious hypothesise so must be designed out.

When you start the car, does it have a system that must crank and start both engines simulatenously? What happens if one does not start on the button?

Matt_T

415 posts

75 months

Saturday 11th December 2021
quotequote all
It looks like the frame that the rear engine hangs in is part of the roll cage.

Can't help feeling that it mah be more fun to drive if it just had the rear engine.

Don1

15,956 posts

209 months

Saturday 11th December 2021
quotequote all
Amazing. I can remember being amazed by Ian Birch's twin engined vr6 Mk2 golf back in the max power days...

IIRC the length of the drive to the gearboxes gave the synchronisation, but I could be a long way out on that.

waynecyclist

8,881 posts

115 months

Saturday 11th December 2021
quotequote all
impractical_classic said:
Brilliant car, but like lots of similar conversions doesn't appear to have been IVA'd so the statement that it is "road legal" is dubious at best. As long as a buyer is happy to take the risk that they might get stuck with a track only car, then it's fine, but I do think Pistonheads should be more careful when writing about cars like this - not everyone understands the rules.
^^Sums up my thinking, good case of buyer beware

anonymous-user

55 months

Saturday 11th December 2021
quotequote all
mike74 said:
Dealer has had this for sale for yeeeeeears now.
… I can’t imagine why

Maccmike8

1,041 posts

55 months

Saturday 11th December 2021
quotequote all
Not a brave pill IMO.
Also, I like the sellers title Twin V6 as opposed to the writer saying its a V12 which it really is not.
Very cool build. Painted a subtle colour and losing the orange, this would be an absolute wolf in sheeps clothing.

martin12345

612 posts

90 months

Saturday 11th December 2021
quotequote all
TUS373 said:
Can someone please explain how a twin engined car synchronises power from each end? My immediate thought is that the car will be either compressing or stretching itself. That is an obvious hypothesise so must be designed out.

When you start the car, does it have a system that must crank and start both engines simulatenously? What happens if one does not start on the button?
The engines are not fully synch'd as the article says. The rear is "over driving" which is compressing the car a bit is theory, in reality the tyres will "give" to balance out the front and rear. This will if the imbalance is extreme lead to either handling problems and/or high tyre wear . Several modern 4WD systems (Focus RS, AMG45, GRY for example) overdrive the rear axle by a small amount (2~5% I think but would need to check) to give a degree of RWD feel with "push" from the rear


In terms of starting the engines, I would expect that each engine has its own starter switch/button - be very suprised if not so. If only one and only 1 started you'd have to switch off and try again which could get a bit annoying if one wouldn't catch

samoht

5,758 posts

147 months

Saturday 11th December 2021
quotequote all
These two-engine cars feel like the kind of thing that would be a bit of a laugh to play around with, but can't imagine it being a car one would want to drive it more than that - having the F/R torque bias be so 'free' would be amusing but not something I'd want to push the limits of without a lot of run-off! At least with a manual gearbox at each end you're not at the mercy of one end kicking down before the other.

vehicleenquiry.service.gov.uk said:
Cylinder Capacity: 1124 cc
scratchchin


Billy_Whizzzz

2,022 posts

144 months

Saturday 11th December 2021
quotequote all
Can’t imagine it is in any way useable for anything including track days or actual drifting even if that is your thing. Probably best as a static object, although an interesting exercise.

jwwbowe

577 posts

173 months

Saturday 11th December 2021
quotequote all
That’s a bit mental, I’d like a go but that would be enough. Would love to see how they liked the boxes and clutches to. Interesting but Pill needs to get back to obscure V12 Mercs to be at its best biggrin

benzinbob

750 posts

57 months

Saturday 11th December 2021
quotequote all
For those who want to colour code their funeral orange and white.

croyde

23,000 posts

231 months

Saturday 11th December 2021
quotequote all
How do you insure something like this?

It'd fry the brain of the poor guys at the call centre.

What size engine sir?

What! Did you say two engines?

hehe

sideways man

1,323 posts

138 months

Saturday 11th December 2021
quotequote all
It’s an older French car that’s twice as complicated… what could possibly go wrong laugh

White-Noise

4,290 posts

249 months

Saturday 11th December 2021
quotequote all
Its not a v12 smash

Things like this are fun and I'm glad people do these mad things just for the hell of it