My mis-named Copiapoas

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iann
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My mis-named Copiapoas

Post by iann »

Fingers crossed most of mine have the right names. Certainly they have believable names, but some not so believable.

This one came labelled as C. marginata, no data, but is almost certainly C. humilis. Copiapoas experts have confirmed that diagnosis.
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This is a tricky one. It is labelled as C. krainziana but you can see it isn't the standard form. It was grown from seed OLV24 which Benjy now calls C. albispina. This is an intermediate between C. cinerea and C. krainziana and possibly a hybrid between them. I like it though :)
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This one is surely wrong. Label says C. columna-alba but it can't be. C. coquimbana perhaps. It has fibrous roots though, I would expect some sort of taproot on C. coquimbana. It has the number WM013 which is also wrong. Presumably WM031, C. columna-alba, Esmeralda, but I don't think it is that.
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This one is anybody's guess. The seed is FK563 and should be C. megarhiza. It looks for all the world like C. humilis but may end up being C. megarhiza when all is done. It has a single thick fairly woody taproot.
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--ian
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CoronaCactus
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Post by CoronaCactus »

Beautiful plants Ian!

1. Body looks like humilis, but the spines seem pretty stout for humilis :dontknow: C. humilis v. tocopillana...?

2. Love that krainziana/albispina. The darker spines at the apex are really cool.

3. I'm not really familiar with those 2 species...my first inclination was bridgesi. There is a photo of the root system of coquimbana on page 29 of Anderson's The Cactus Family. No taproot. Thickish and long fiberous roots, widespread and close to the surface.

4. From the Copiapoa handbook, the original description by Britton & Rose:
"Plants with large fleshy roots, (a taproot?) sometimes 25cm long and 7 to 8cm in diameter, usually single, rarely in 2s and 3s, globular to elongate-cylindric, 8 to 26cm long, 4 to 9cm diameter, dull green to almost white; ribs usually 13, very low; crown of plant covered with long white wool at flowering time; spines about 12, 1.5cm long, rather stout, at first yellow but soon grey; flowers yellow, 2.5cm long; fruit green, 6 to 8mm long, naked, crowned by 5 green scales; seeds black, 2mm long."
iann
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Post by iann »

1. The mis-named plant isn't huge, so the spines aren't all that stout. I have a smaller ssp tocopillana, but it isn't really comparable. No sign of ribs, but still a fair-sized set of roots. C. humilis is astonishingly variable, yet only four subspecies are recognised and no huge list of synonyms.
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2. The plants that are usually called C. albispina are big like C. cinerea with just a few pale spines, quite striking. This is much closer to C. krainziana and I think there is more or less a continuous variety between the two subspecies if you look hard enough.

3. C. bridgesii has more defined ribs and black spines, not so strong. Here's a little one I just snapped with flash, but already the tubercles are almost lost in the rubs.
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Maybe a C. echinoides that hasn't really settled its rubs? Here's one (C. dura) almost exactly the same size and it doesn't really look the same. C. echinoides is considered to have only fibrous roots like my plant.
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C. coquimbana roots are an interesting one. The descriptions are consistent that it has enlarged roots, described as "turnip-like" or "strongly tuberous". It is grouped with C. megarhiza as having a "swollen, tuberous" root. I have a couple of confirmed C. coquimbana plants and a probable, and none of them have particularly enlarged roots, certainly nothing on the scale of C. humilis, C. hypogaea, or C. megarhiza. C. coquimbana today does cover a lot of different plants, but I'd welcome any information that people can offer about the roots on their C. coquimbana plants.

4. I find descriptions of Copiapoa taproots can be a little confusing sometimes. For example, C. cinerea is described as having a woody taproot, yet it isn't very noticeable and to all intents and purposes the species has fibrous roots. You could say it has a taproot in the same way that a Saguaro has a taproot, there is a stiff root going down for stability on large plants but it is nowhere near the size of the plant body and does not form a significant fraction of the root system. C. humilis is sometimes described as having a taproot, yet what it actually has is highly thickened tuberous roots often much larger than the plant body, certainly not a long single root going straight down. C. megarhiza on the other hand, also described as having swollen fleshy roots, tends to a very long single root going straight down, not as white and fleshy as on C. humilis. Sometimes it may develop a shorter thicker root more like a turnip than a carrot.
--ian
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CoronaCactus
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Post by CoronaCactus »

More beauties!
Not that i'm any good at Copiapoa IDs, but even less so with seedlings :?

1.
I have noticed a somewhat easy way to ID humilis. (although i could be wrong about this) but humilis will usually have that spiderweb like wool around the areoles, not a fuzzy areole persay, but that clump of cotton.

Your plant may be small, but i see a more spear like spine, than a pin like spine. C. montana? (probably not...i see it's now going by the name C. hypogaea v. montana)

I agree, your ssp. tocopillana bears no resemblence.

2.
If you ever come across any extra albispina seed, i'd love to get some ;)

3.
This reinforces that i have lots to learn, i would have surely guessed at calderana (lembckei magnifica) for that bridgesi :|

I guess it could be echinoides, but seems to have more of a marginata/rupestris lumpy body.
iann
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Post by iann »

How about some more variations of C. humilis? All these are seedlings about two years old. These show the juvenile form, with thin spines described as setaceous or bristly and the thickened fleshy "taproot". Plants may or may not eventually develop into a mature form, with defined ribs, stronger spines, and that wool which clings onto the areoles. Note that plants can and do flower in the juvenile form. Ssp tenuissima can be regarded as stuck in the juvenile form, it never develops strong spines and a tall ribbed body, although it can get quite woolly. Ssp tocopillana may be the same.
Image Image Image Image Image

Mesa Garden has Copiapoa cinerea var albispina seed for sale, but I suspect it won't be the same as my plant. I have seen similar plants offered as C. brunnescens (wrong name) and C. krainzaiana var scopulina (another poorly defined name). Obviously the ideal would be to keep your eyes open for OLV24 although it was collected in 2001 so probably no seed left.

Copiapoa bridgesii is another horrible name that was originally described on the basis of a drawing and little more. Ritter defined the name more precisely but unfortunately picked a different plant to define it on! My plant is a form of C. marginata as described by Ritter and seems to be the more common form in cultivation, at least in Europe. C. bridgesii is officially referred to C. echinoides based on the original drawing and that is a completely different plant.

And you keep adding more worms to the can! The name C. lembckei is generally used for a form of C. calderana with black spines, but as discussed recently some plants have yellow spines. Also, some plants in cultivation as C. lembckei appear to be C. marginata! C. magnifica is a bad name used by Knize for two completely different plants. KK173 is a form of C. marginata and was distributed as C. marginata var magnifica. KK1393 is a form of C. calderana (lembckei) with black spines. I have small plants of KK1393, more black spines and low ribs but not the same plant as my C. bridgesii. For obvious reasons, C. calderana and C. marginata have been confused in the past or considered closely related but are now considered quite separate. The C. calderana forms have large fleshy roots not unlike C. humilis, while C. marginata forms have more classical shorter stiffer taproots described as "woody, not swollen and fleshy".
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--ian
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Post by süleyman »

Hi Iann,
Your names are definitely right, don't worry :)
cactusboy
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Post by cactusboy »

Currently, I am in the process of repotting most of my Copiapoas since a lot of them have been neglected and trapped in their tiny pots for the past 4 years. As there has been much talk about Copiapoas recently I thought that I would take a few pictures of their roots and post them up here either to clarify things or create more confusion, because I am a bit confused after reading some of the recent post on Copiapoas. Most of them are babies but they do come from three different sources; mail order supplier in Australia, seed-grown from Mesa Gardens, or purchased from Rudolf Schulz(so 99.9% sure these ones are from habitat collected seed).

Most of my Copiapoas received little water the past 2 summers (due to rehousing collection) so some of them look a bit rough and root constricted.


Coquimbanas - The first two on the left was purchased as pseudocoquimbana, middle coquimbana, two on the right multicolor. The one on the bottom is calderana. I bought these from a mail-order nursery in Australia over five years ago now. They were growing in a large polystyrene fruit box outside exposed to all the elements (including snails and slugs :evil: ) for almost three years which is why they look so scared.
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Heres a close-up view of the first three:
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Copiapoa lembckei-The first two on the left was purchased from the same nursury, the one on the right is seed-grown from Mesa Gardens. They are in more spacious pots now.
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Copiapoa magnifica - seed grown from mesa Gardens
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Copiapoa solaris - from Rudolf Schulz. I have had these for over 5 years and they have been very slow growing for me. Although I'm not a great grower.
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Copiapoa megarhiza from Rudolf
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A sun-burnt pair of dealbata from Rudolf
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I will post up pics of my larger Copiapoas and others hopefully in the next few days if I have time to do it.

Sorry Ian if it looks like up trying to hijack your post.
:)
iann
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Post by iann »

Well your C. coquimbanas certainly have thickened roots. I'll have to have a good look at mine when I do some repotting in the spring.

Your C lembckei are like mine, they can stand up without a pot :shock:

I think the Mesa Gardens C. magnifica should be KK1393, the same as mine.

The C. megarhiza isn't really earning its name yet. How big is it? On mine, the root is considerably longer than the body and nearly as thick.

There's definitely a bit of a woody taproot coming on that righthand C. dealbata. All mine, and the other C. cinerea relatives, are just fibrous roots so far. I'll have a close look next time I repot them also.
--ian
iann
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Post by iann »

Hi Suleyman, which names do you think are right? The names they came with or the names I'm guessing at?
--ian
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Post by DWDogwood »

cactusboy, these are all really healthy looking plants-apparently a little "neglect" doesn't do this genus any harm. Interesting to note that solaris has the least tappish root system. Slow growing indeed. Nice valuable reference photos.
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Post by CoronaCactus »

Nice humilis seedlings Ian!
Sorry, i'll keep the worms to a minimum ;)

Great plant/root pics cactusboy! Definetely some valuable reference.


Here's one that i think is misnamed... It's had a rough life, appearently a dark one too. I've had it for about a year now and you can see i've given it much more light and now the tops have ballooned up and it looks rather goofy...
C. marginata?
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This one came as C. dura (which is now C. echinoides) but figured i'd post it in comparison to your (Ian) C. echinoides. I guess this would be the dark body form? plus i really like how the skin has begun to form a waxy coating :D (sorry for the blurry pic)
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This one came as C. carrizalensis, which i then found synonymous with C. malletiana...which i then found (from the Copiapoa handbook) that C. malletiana was a bogus name and best left alone... so then it became C. cinerea v. delbata!
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Here's a nice brown spined form of C. calderana.
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This one has been a mystery since day 1...came as Copiapoa sp. 'Trigillo'. Which i have seen on the web (I think Suleymans site?) But can't seem to pin down what it could actually be. It's possible it could be rupestris/desertorm, but the spines don't really match up, nor does their color. These are more black/dark brown, where as rupestris/desertorm are a lighter brown to tan. But the body/rib shape is very similar.
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I also have 5 or 6 more than i've been trying to figure out...i think i have 3 ID'd, but not sure. Will post those up soon.
iann
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Post by iann »

I don't think that's C. marginata A mature specimen like this should have well defined ribs. Even my little seedlings are starting out on ribs at barely a year old. C. coquimbana?

Looks like C. dura, now C. echinoides. A problem would be the waxy bloom, which C. dura shouldn't develop.

I'm not familiar with C. carrizalensis except that it is a synonym of C. dealbata. Small seedlings start out with fewer spines than this, and lose them steadily until they are lucky to have one per areole. Other than that it is quite similar to C. dealbata. Maybe C. carrizalensis has more spines? Here's mine at about the same size.

Image

C. calderana looks about right.
--ian
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Post by CoronaCactus »

coquimbana eh...i'll look into that one.

Crap...so what do you think is causing the wax on the C. dura? Hard water from overhead watering? The lighting in the pic makes it look worse than it is...i think that pic is overexposed.

I guess we'll wait and see what the carrizalensis does...looks similar to your delbata, but also different enough to question.

Not gonna touch the Trigillo? :)
iann
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Post by iann »

Not gonna touch the Trigillo? Smile
Where did that come from? I never saw it before!

Is there no collection number with it? Knize collected two apparently different plants from Tigrillo. One is generally considered to be C. longistaminea but yours doesn't look like that. Another species from the area is C. uhligiana, a type of C. cinerea.

And also C. taltalensis collected by several people. How does that sound? Its a pretty spiny plant and C. rupestris is lumped in there too. C. desertorum is also now considered a subspecies.
--ian
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CoronaCactus
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Post by CoronaCactus »

It came from C&J. They've been growing it under that name. I can see if they have any other data for it, but Jim could not recal any further info at the time i got them.

I'll look into those others, thanks.
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